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„Neko je morao da popusti. A dogodilo se da smo svi popustili istovremeno. Od tada stvaramo zajedno…“

Kurws je no wave/punk/impro bend iz Vroclava, Poljska. U Omadinskom centru CK13 Kurws je nastupio u maju 2014. godine, a ovaj intervju je povod da se bolje upoznamo. Sa članovima benda, Kubom i Hubertom, razgovarali smo o muzici Kuwrsa, Centru za renimaciju kulture, poljskoj undreground muzičkoj sceni, odnosu politike i muzike… English vershion of the interview follows after the serbian version.

Recite nam nešto o poljskoj nezavinoj, DIY sceni. Čini se da je nezavisna muzička scena u Poljskoj razvijena, ali nedovoljno vidljiva ostatku Evrope; veliki broj bendova i muzičara deluju na sceni, a tu su i značajni muzički festivali poput OFF Festivala i Asymmetry Festivala. Koje bendove i muzičare bi izdvojili i preporučili?

Kuba:
Na prvom mestu izdvajam Ukryte Zalety Systemu, bend iz vežbaonice CRK-a (Centar za reanimaciju kulture, Vroclav/http://crk.wroclaw.pl/). Nadam se da će imati turneju na Balkanu. Mislim da bi publika u zemljama bivše SFRJ imala sluha za tradiciju novog i hladnog talasa na koji referišu. Tokom naše balkanske turneje mnogo smo razgovarali sa ljudima, i pomen na bendove kao što su Šarlo Akrobata, rani Električni Orgazam i Disciplina Kičme izazivao je osmehe kod Srba, Hrvata, Makedonaca… U tim osmesima mogla se uočiti naročita vrsta nostalgije za jugopankom i dobrim starim osamdesetim u jugoslovenskoj muzici, čak i neki vid ponosa. Zbog toga, Ukryte Zalety Systemu bi mogao da prođe zapaženo na Balkanu, što bend i zaslužuje, ako budu u prilici da budu na turneji. Njihovi odlični tekstovi su posebna tema za elaboraciju, ali tekstovi su na maternjem jeziku. Velika šteta po vas.
Drugi interesantni bendovi sa post-punk scene su 19 Wiosen (postoje od 1989. i iznenađujuće, sve su bolji i bolji), 11 (njihov album prvenac “Gettokosmos” sa dekadentnim, post-ironičnim tekstovima Marcina Pryta iz 19 Wiosen kombinovanim sa elektronskim nojzom i istraživanjima tišine), Wilczy Szaniec (jedan od trenutno najinteresantnijih bendova direktno sa poljske DIY hardcore-punk scene). Takođe, veoma talentovani „hip hoper“ Robert Piernikowski (muzičar koji hrabro proširuje granice post-repa) i čitavo okruženje neverovatnih muzičara sa Lado ABC scene u Varšavi (Marcin Masecki, Bartosz Webber, Macio Moretti, Piotr Zabrodzki…). Ovo su ljudi koji se ni ne trude da postave stilske granice, već rade kao da granice nikada nisu ni postojale.

Hubert:
Po mom mišljenju, poljska muzička scena se razvija veoma dobro. Pitam se, da li je to nuspojava vesternizacije? Odbacujemo provincijski manir imitiranja i vidimo sebe kao integralni deo globalnog kulturnog toka. U tom smislu, drago mi je da su slatke devedesete prošle. Ne trebaju nam lokalne imitacije Shellaca ili Pixiesa ili drugih američkih i engleskih bendova. Naravno, još uvek ima ljudi koji preozbiljno shvataju svoje uzore, ali to više ne privlači toliku pažnju. Ima više mogućnosti da se pronađe muzika bez kompleksa malih naroda; muzika kojoj ne treba lokalni ili undeground/politički kontekst da bi sebe objasnila. To je značajno.

Osećam se preplavljenim količinom dobrih stvari za čitanje ili za slušanje, pa ne stižem sve da ispratim onako kako bih želeo. U poslednje vreme slušam Hubert Zemler „Gostak & Doshes“ , POLE (Zabrodzki / Górczynski / Młynarski) „Radom“, Zdzisław Piernik plays compositions of Piotr Zabrodzki “Namanga”, Langfurtka (Trzaska / Witkowski), Księżyc s/t LP.

Kurwsi su usko povezani sa CRK-om. Recite nam nešto o Centru za reanimaciju kulture: kako je Centar organizovan, koji programi i kakve inicijative postoje unutar Centra, i koji su njegovi problemi? Kako ste vi ukjučeni u rad CRK-a?

Kurws 2Hubert:
Teško je ispičati celu priču u jednom intervjuu. CRK je društveni i edukativni eksperiment sa direktnom demokratijom, politikom i kulturom. Tako vidim ovaj projekat nakon svih ovih godina angažmana. Uvek je vredno pokušati sa osnivanjem ovakvog mesta, bez obzira što je teško održavati njegov rad. Ali, hajde da se fokusiramo na pozitivne stvari: rad u ovakvom centru može da oblikuje vaše veštine ili da vam pomogne da otkrijete nove. Sam rad može da bude raznolik i izazovan, samo ako to hoćete. Trenutno nisam u kolektivu CRK-a. Povukao sam se na neko vreme. Ponekad organizujem koncerte ili pomažem oko drugih stvari. Nadam se da će se mesto razviti u nešto novo. Postojeće inicijative unutar CRK-a su: muzički i kulturni programi, kolektiv prostora za probe, radionica sito-štampe, sportska vežbaonica, biciklistička radionica, samba, joga i kapuera grupe, susreti političkih grupa i kafe. I, definitno, biće i više od toga!

Kuba:
Uh, to je duga priča. Uključio sam se u CRK 2002. godine, dve godine nakon Huberta. Kurwsi su počeli sa radom u CRK-u i ponovo tamo vežbamo. Dawid je, zajedno sa nama, član kolektiva prostora za vežbanje. Naš prvi saksofonista, Tokar, takođe je član CRK-a.

CRK je počeo kao prva legalna baza za skvotersku scenu u Vroclavu, još 2000. CRK je kolektiv. Koristimo anarhističke metode samoorganizovanja. Nema šefova i mesto ne zavisi od spoljnih izvora finansiranja. Ovako je funkcionisalo poslednjih 15 godina, ali pre dve godine morali smo da napravimo kompromis i da pustimo grad da unajmi kompaniju koja će da renovira zgradu CRK-a. To je bila teška odluka i posledice su vidljive, nakon dve godine, radovi nisu završeni i nalazimo se u nekoj vrsti limba. Ali to je druga priča.

U intervjuu sa Piotrom Lewandowskim istakli ste da su vaše kolektivne prakse i rad u CRK-u inkorporirane u muziku Kurwsa. Ovo smatramo važnim, jer se čini da je bend nastao iz ideja i koncepata koje delite ne samo na polju muzike, nego i izvan nje. Recite nam nešto o ovome.

Kuba:
To se dogodilo nesvesno, osvešćenje dolazi kasnije, nakon observacije. Tražili smo zajedničko tlo, džemujući od prvih proba. Svi smo bili drugačiji. Svaki od nas je imao iskustvo sa drugim bendovima i lako je mogao da postane lider nekog novog benda. Tako da smo morali da shvatimo nešto drugo. Neko je morao da popusti. A dogodilo se da smo svi popustili istovremeno. Od tada stvaramo zajedno i to samo tokom proba. Kad odustanemo od ovog načina, ne ide.

I tako je počelo. Ne iz ideologije, već iz života. A kako je praksa kolektivnog rada u CRK-u naš svakodnevni život, ona utiče i na našu muzičku politiku.

Tu je i slogan „ideje ne estetike“. Teško je staviti vašu muziku u striktne forme, ali ona se dotiče različitih društvenih, političkih pitanja, kao što se može zaključiti i iz naziva pesama: “Tanz Mit Kommune”, „Weltgeist“, „Euro Zone“… Da li su za vas ideje i koncepti ispred muzike?

Kuba:
Najpre, naziv pesme je “Tanz mit Kommune 1” (izgovara se „eins“) što menja kontekst za 180 stepeni. Od postkomunističke države, gde je reč komunizam poprimila pežorativno značenje, do nemačke generacije 68, zaljubljene u ideje sa levice, nasuprot njihovim komšijama iz Istočnog Berlina…

Pravljenje muzike može biti samo jedna od ljudskih delatnosti, kao bilo koja druga, tako da je pod uticajem onoga o čemu mislimo i šta radimo itd… I naravno, reč je, takođe, i o estetici. Ali pitanje glasi: koje od ovo dvoje – ideje ili estetika – ima primarnu ulogu. Mi nismo bend poput CRASS, mi ne gradimo armiju. Ne radi se o proklamovanju nekakvog političkog programa. Mi smo veoma različiti ljudi, sa veoma različitim idejama. Estetika je rezultat zajedničkog rada između ovih različitih ljudi. Ona proizilazi iz verbalne i neverbalne komunikacije, razmene koju ne možemo da zaustavimo kada smo zajedno u prostoriji za vežbanje.

Iskreno, intervjui poput ovog, pomažu nam da dovedemo u red naša razmišljanja o ovim pitanjima.

Hubert:
Nekim nazivima naših kompozicija osvetljvamo različite momente u istoriji ideja, politike, kulture i filozofije. Prateći te momente, možete pokušati napraviti vlastitu mapu. Istovremeno, možete se i izgubiti, jer neki od ovih naziva nemaju gotovo nikakav smisao. Osim ukoliko ne upotrebite imaginaciju.

Da li, po vašem mišljenju, muzičari i umetnici uopšte, imaju društvenu odgovornost?

Kuba:
Mislim da svaki čovek ima neku društvenu odgovornost, nije važno da li je umetnik ili političar (polje delatnosti postavlja skalu odgovornosti – naša odgovornost je ograničena na ljude otvorenog uma). Ipak, postoji čitav niz mogućih interpretacija ove činjenice, o čemu nam svedoči istorija društvenog otpora i političkih borbi, velikih i malih priča. Nekad činjnjenje nečeg anti društvenog donosi dobrobit za društvo. Nekad ne. Postoji vreme kada savesno radimo svoj posao i vreme kada odustajemo od njega zarad svog ili nečijeg drugog dobra.

I, siguran sam da društvo koje odluči da odustane od Licentia poetica zatvara se, i, pre ili kasnije, neko će morati da pusti vazduh. Kada vidim jeftinu provokaciju ni za sekundu neću dovesti u pitanje svoje pravo da jednako postupim.

Hubert:
Kao čovek, umetnik je deo društva. Mislim da je dobro kada ljudi imaju individualne slobode i svesni su života u različitim društveno-ekonomskim i kulturnim kontekstima. Dobro je kada su dovoljno mudri da nemaju uvek univerzalne odgovore za sve i dovoljno empatični da razumeju potrebe i perspektive drugih ljudi. I kada su dovoljno hrabri da uzdrmaju zajednicu/društvo ako misle da je to potrebno. Umetnik tu nije izuzetak.

Šta je za vas bitno dok stvarate muziku i šta vas u tome pokreće?

Kurws 3Kuba:
Za nas je pravljenje muzike postala navika, radimo kada to zaista želimo ali, takođe, i kada nema mnogo toga što nas ohrabruje da nastavimo dalje. Čini mi se da su dve stvari uzrok ovome: jutarnje probe četiri dana u nedelji i sviranje uživo, kada si na bini i kada su ljudi oko tebe i očekuju od tebe da pokušaš, čak i ako te greška gurne ka ivici i prestravljen si da ćeš pasti.

Hubert:
U našem slučaju zaista se može osetiti da je muzika forma komunikacije i rezultat kolektivne imaginacije i kreativnosti. Instrumenti reflektuju ličnosti. Istovremeno, toliko je mnogo stvari koje se ne mogu predvideti. Neprestano se iznenađujem i ne znam kuda nas sve ovo vodi. Radoznalost za ono naredno što će se dogoditi, kako će prijatelji iz benda reagovati na moje muzičke ideje, šta još možemo stvoriti zajedno na mnogim nivoima: ne samo muzičkim. Ovo su dovoljni razlozi da nastavimo da radimo.

Vaša muzika inkorporira punk stav, improvizaciju i ironiju. Rekli ste da vam je nekada teško da pravite muziku u Kurwsima jer ste uvek u potrazi za novim putem pravljenja muzike. Kako to da ste od inicijalne ideje da svirate punk počeli da improvizujete i eksperimentišete sa muzikom?

Kuba:
Pre nekoliko godina, još pre Kurwsa, David je rekao: „Napraviti punk bend bi moglo da bude dobra startna pozicija. Videćemo gde će nas to odvesti“. Ovo inkorporiramo u Kurwsima. Takođe, za mene ništa nije više punk od improizacije, to je nešto što možeš da radiš i pre nego što naučiš da sviraš. Vremenom naučiš da to radiš više svesno. Čak bih rekao da je improvizacija nezaobilazna u organskom stvaranju muzike. Naravno, ako su prvi muzički koraci u konzervatorijumu ili pred laptopom onda bi imrovizacija mogla da bude stran metod.

Vašu muzike izdajete u formi audio kasete, CD-a, vinila i on line. Zašto vam je bitno da pokrijete sve ove formate?

Hubert:
Hoćemo da naša muzika bude dostupna. Takođe, različiti nosači zvuka imaju različite potencijale po pitanju zvuka ili percepcije, ali i oblika, dizajna itd. Zabavno je igrati se sa tim mogućnostima, naročito kada su ti objekti posvećeni tvojoj muzici.

Zašto imate više izdavača?

Hubert:
Iz više razloga. Bolja distribucija, povezivanje sa prijateljima, pitanje novca i dobrih uslova. Mi smo fleksibilni. Volimo da stvaramo nova prijateljstva i da radimo u novim kontekstima.

Posvećeni ste principima Uradi Sam etike, i svirali ste više od 100 koncerata širom Evrope. Ovo podrazumeva naporan rad i posvećenost. Da li ste svi jednako uključeni u organizovanju i bukiranju koncerata? Da li možete reći nešto više o vašem kolektivnom radu u bendu i kako donosite odluke?

Kuba:
Teško je. Mi i dalje učimo kako da radimo a da ne usporavamo neke aktivnosti, da ne zapinjemo prilikom donošenja odluka. Sada smo kvartet, ali nas trojica, Dawid, Hubert i ja- radimo na probama i bavimo se prozaičnom stranom Kurwsa. Oscar živi u Štokholmu, tako da ga ne uključujemo u sva pitanja. Svaki od nas trojice bukira koncerte, s vremena na vreme, ali čini mi se da je trenutno Hubert najjefikasniji. Često zauzimamo različite uloge u grupi. Neke stvari su za nekoga jednostavne, dok bi drugima mogle pasti teže…

Koji su planovi za Kurws?

Hubert:
Check http://kurws.com/

Razgovarao Ozren Lazić

Snimak sa nastupa Kurwsa u CK13

 

English version:

„Someone had to let it go. So it came out that everyone did at once. Since then We compose the songs
altogether…“

Kurws i as no wave/punk/impro band from Vroclav, Poland. Kurws had perfromed in Youth centre CK13 in may 2014. and this interview is a way to get to know them better. We talked to band member, Kiba and Hubert, about their music, Centre for reanimation of culture, polish undergound music scene, relation between music and politics…

Please tell me something about Polish independent/DIY scene. It seems that there are a lot of interesting bands and musicians but are somehow unknown in Europe. However there are really interesting music/art festivals such as OFF Festival, Asymmetry Festival. Which bands and musicians would you point out yourself?

Kuba:
For sure Ukryte Zalety Systemu – this is the band from CRK rehearsal room. I really hope They could tour Balkans once. I think former Yugoslavian countries could appreciate those slav new- and cold-wave traditions they refer to. During Our Balkan tour We talked a lot with people, and the question of bands like Šarlo Akrobata, early Električni Orgazam and Disciplina Kitschme met the smile of Serbians, Croatians, Macedonians… In those smiles you could see some nostalgia for yugopunk and good old eighties in Yugoslavian music, even some kind of pride. Ukryte Zalety Systemu may get the deserved feedback if any Balkan tour will ever happen to them. Their excellent lyrics is another subject to elaborate but these are sung in their mother tongue. Too bad for You.

Other interesting acts from widely considered post punk scene are 19 Wiosen (existing since 1989 and surprisingly becoming better and better), 11 (with their debut album “Gettokosmos”, decadent, post-ironic lyrics by Marcin Pryt from 19 Wiosen combined with electronic noise and silence explorations), Wilczy Szaniec (one of the most interesting act directly from polish DIY hard-core punk scene at the moment). You’ve got also very talented “hip-hoper” Robert Piernikowski (music solo act bravely expanding the boundaries of post-rap) and whole the environment of amazing musicians from Lado ABC scene in Warsaw (acts by Marcin Masecki, Bartosz Webber, Macio Moretti, Piotr Zabrodzki…) – these are people who don’t even bother to contest music style boundaries – they act like the boundaries would never existed.

Hubert:
In my opinion polish music scene is developing very well. I’m wondering if it might be side effect of westernisation. We’re casting away provincial attitude of imitating and we‘re finding ourselves in global culture stream as equal part of it. In that case I‘m glad that sweet 90’s finally passed. We don’t need local imitations of Shellac or Pixies or another american or english band. Of course still you can find people who are taking their inspirations too serious, but it doesn‘t drag so much attention anymore. You have more opportunities to find music without complex of being from Poland. Music which doesn‘t need local or underground/political context to explain itself. It is significant.
I’m feeling overwhelmed by surplus of good stuff to read or to listen so I can’t follow everything properly. It’s too much. Last time at home I’m listening:

Hubert Zemler „Gostak & Doshes“

POLE (Zabrodzki / Górczynski / Młynarski) „Radom“

Zdzisław Piernik plays compositions of Piotr Zabrodzki “Namanga”

Langfurtka (Trzaska / Witkowski)

Księżyc s/t LP

The Kurws are closely connected with CRK. Please tell me more about it, how it is organized, what are programs and initiatives, what are problems and how you guys are active in CRK?

Hubert:
It’s hard to tell whole story in one interview. CRK is social, educative experiment with direct democracy, politics and culture. That’s how I see this project after all this years of engagement. It’s always worth to try to establish place like that even when it’s really hard work to keep it going. Let’s focus on positives: this activity can shape your skills or you can discover a new ones. This work can be diverse and challenging. Only if you want. I’m not in a collective of CRK right now. I’m taking a rest for a while. Rarely I’m organising shows and helping with some things. I’m hoping place will evolve to new itself. Initiatives of CRK today: musical and art events, rehearsal space collective, screen printing workshop, sports room, jam, bike workshop, place for samba group, yoga and capoeira, meeting place for political groups and cafe. And …. definitely there is more to come!

Kuba:
Boah… That’s a long subject. I’ve been involved in CRK since 2002, I joined two years after Hubert. The Kurws has begun in CRK and currently We are rehearsing there back again. Dawid is together with Us a member or rehearsing room collective, our first saxophonist – Tokar – has been a CRK member too.

CRK has begunas first legal base for squatting environment in Wrocław, back in 2000. It’s a collective. We use anarchist methods for self organization. There are no bosses and the place does not depend on external source of money. It has been like this for past 15 years, but two years ago We had to make a compromise and let the city employed company to make the renovation. It was hard decision, We are not satisfied from effects. After two years the works are still not over so We have to remain in some kind of limbo – but this is another story.

I’ve read in the interview that you did with Piotr Lewandowski that you are incorporating your collective practices and work in CRK into you music and the band. I find this very important because it seems that band emerged from ideas, concepts that you shared and not just in field of music but beyond. How do you see this?

Kuba:
It happens unconsciously, consciousness comes later, from observation. And so We were searching for common ground by jamming together at the very first rehearsals. Each of Us was very different. Each of Us had his past experience with other bands and could easily become a leader of the new one. So here We needed to figure out something else. Someone had to let it go. So it came out that everyone did at once. Since then We compose the songs altogether during rehearsals only. Usually when We drop this method it doesn’t work.

That’s how this manner has begun. Not by ideology, but by life. And since the practice of collective work in CRK is our everyday life, it influences Our music politics too. Sure.

And there is slogan of the band “ideas not aesthetics” .  It is hard to put your music in strict forms but it is concerned with various social, political subject as it can been conclude from song titles such as “Tanz Mit Kommune”, Weltgeist, Euro Zone…. Like if ideas and concepts are in front of what is that you want to represent with your music?

Kuba:
First of all the song is called “Tanz mit Kommune 1” (pronounced “eins”) which change the context for something like 180 degrees. From post-communist bloc country, where the world communism has got a pejorative meaning, to the headquarters of german ’68 generation, in love with ideas of left side, contrary to their east Berlin neighbors…

Making music can be just one of the human activities, like any other. So it is under the impact of what We think, What We do etc…

And off course it is about the aesthetics too, but the question is which of those two – ideas and aesthetics – occupies the primal role. We are not band like CRASS – We don’t build an army. It’s not about proclaiming some political program. We are very different people, with very different ideas… The aesthetic is a result of common work between these very different people. It comes from verbal and non verbal conversations, an exchange that is impossible for Us to stop once We find ourselves altogether in one rehearsal room.

To be very honest, interviews like this one helps Us to order such issues.

Hubert:
With some titles of our compositions we’re spotting light on distracted moments in history of ideas, politics, culture, philosophy. You can try create your own map by following them. In the same time you can be also lost, because some of this titles means almost nothing. Unless you’ll use your imagination.

Do you think that musicians and artists in general should have social responsibility?

Kuba:
I think every human being has some social responsibility, doesn’t really matter if he’s an artist or politician (field of activity sets the scale of responsibility – Our is limited to open-minded people). Though there is a whole variety of possibilities how this fact could be interpreted. Whole history of social resistance, political outbursts, of big and small narrations. Sometimes making something anti-social might end up with some profits for society. Other times not. There is a time for conscientious doing your job and time for dropping it for your own or others good.

And yes, I’m sure that society which decides to drop Licentia poetica locks their room and sooner or later someone will have to air it. When I see some lame provocation it only makes me ask for intention. Not even for second I would question the right to be lame.

Hubert:
Artist is a part of society like every human being. I guess it’s good when people have individual freedom of expression and consciousness of living in diverse social-economical-cultural context. It’s good when they are wise enough not to have always universal answer for everything and emphatic enough to understand other people perspective and different needs. And brave enough to shake the community/society if they think it’s necessary. Artist is not an exception.

What is important for you when you make music? What is it that gives you a drive for making music?

Kuba:
For us making music became a habit – We do it when We really want it and also when not that much encourages Us to go on. I guess two things are responsible for this habit: morning rehearsals four days a week and playing live generally – when you’re on the stage and there are people around you expecting you’ll give it a try, even if mistake pushed you on the edge and you’re so terrified to fall.

Hubert:
In our case you can really feel that music is a form of communication and result of collective imagination and creativity. Instruments reflects personality. In the same time there so many things you can’t predict. I’m feeling constantly surprised so far and I don’t know where we are going with all of this. Curiosity what happens next, how my friends from a band react on my musical ideas, what else we’re able to invent together on many levels: not only musical. Enough arguments to keep doing it.

Your music incorporates punk attitude, improvisation and irony. I’ve read that you find difficult sometimes to make music in Kurws, because you are always in search of finding new paths in music. How come that from initial idea to play punk you started to improvise and experiment?

Kuba:
Some years ago, before Kurws, David said: “Making a punk band might be a good starting point. Let’s see where will it lead Us”. We incorporated this to Kurws. Moreover, for me there is nothing more punk than improvisation – this is something you can do before you learn to play. With time you learn to do it more consciously. I would even say improvisation is unavoidable in organic music making. Off course if you’re making your first music steps in conservatory or in front of the laptop improvisation might be a foreign method.

You are publishing your music on various formats: cassette, CD, vinyl and online. Why is it important for you to cover all this formats?

Hubert:
We want to make our music accessible. And also: different carriers have different potentials in question of sound or perception, but also shape, design etc. It’s fun to play with all this possibilities, especially when this objects are dedicated to your music.

How come that you have various record labels who published your music?

Hubert:
From several reasons. Better distribution, linking with friends, money issues and good deals. We’re flexible. We like to make new friends and operate in new contexts.

You are dedicated to DIY principles, and you have played more than 100 shows throughout Europe. This means hard work and dedication. Are you all equally engaged in organizing and booking? Can you elaborate about your collective work in the band, what are the ways of decision making?

Kuba:
It’s hard and We’re still learning how to do it without slowing down some activities, stucking on decision making. At this point We are quartet, but it is Us three – Me, Dawid and Hubert – who play rehearsals and deal with all the prosaic side of Kurws. Oscar lives in Stockholm, so We don’t include him in whole subjects.

Each of Us three books some shows from time to time, I guess Hubert is currently the most efficient one. We often occupy different roles in this group. Some issues are easier for some, for others they might be harder…

What are current plans for Kurws?

Hubert:
Check www.kurws.com

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